There are no common points of belief between Transhumanism and Christianity, but that doesn’t stop the Christian Transhuman movement from throwing in together. The resulting rhetoric doesn’t make sense to either side, nor to the public-at-large. ⁃ TN Editor
So-called “Christian transhumanism,” or the attempt to blend the transhumanist agenda with the precepts of Christian theology, has been around for some time. But there has been a recent resurgence of interest in the project. The book Religious Transhumanism and Its Critics, published in 2019, claims to offer “first-hand testimony to the value of the transhumanist vision perceived by the religious mind.” The volume includes contributions from a number of Christians. The “Christian Transhumanist Association” (CTA), formed in 2014, is actively dedicated to promoting transhumanism as a means of “participating with God in the redemption, reconciliation, and renewal of the world.”
The problem with these efforts is that the transhumanist worldview and the Christian faith are incompatible. One cannot be a “Christian transhumanist”—any more than one can be a Christian Buddhist or Christian Muslim.
Transhumanism is a futuristic social movement. Its adherents believe that immortality is attainable in the corporeal world through the wonders of applied technology. The goal is to become “H+,” or more than human. Transhumanist proselytizers include academics like Oxford’s Nick Bostrom, Big Tech gurus like Ray Kurzweil, and popularizers like 2016 presidential candidate Zoltan Istvan. They promise that “the singularity” is coming—the time when a crescendo of scientific advances will make the movement unstoppable and transhumanists will transform themselves into super-beings who can enjoy physical life without end.
That transhumanism became a phenomenon is not surprising. Western society is becoming increasingly secular, with an exponential growth of “nones” among the young. Such a societal shift has consequences. Removing God from the human equation engenders hopelessness and breeds nihilism. This is the crucial weakness of modern materialism, one that transhumanism seeks to remedy. By offering adherents the hope of technological rescue from the ultimate obliteration of death, transhumanism offers nonbelievers a postmodern twist on faith’s promise of eternal life. I can live forever, the transhumanist believes fervently, if we just develop the technology soon enough.
But any attempt to merge transhumanism and Christianity is misguided, for the two are contradictory belief systems. Transhumanist dogma is entirely materialistic. Its focus is solipsistic, its purpose eugenic. Moreover, it rejects basic Christian tenets like sin, the need for divine forgiveness, the value of redemptive suffering, and eternal salvation. To obfuscate that truth, the CTA website assiduously avoids discussing the actual tenets of transhumanism. It offers jejune statements such as, “We believe that God’s mission involves the transformation and renewal of creation,” and “We seek growth and progress along every dimension of our humanity.” In this way, the CTA conflates the pursuit of technological advances—which Christians certainly can support—with transhumanism’s fixation on technology as savior.
Nor does the CTA website discuss the “means” that transhumanist advocates plan to use to attain this utopian vision—not to mention their ethical implications. For example, some transhumanists hope to repeatedly renew their bodies through breeding clones as sources of organ replacements. Others plan to have their heads cryogenically frozen to allow eventual surgical attachment on a different body or a cyborg. But transhumanists’ greatest passion is to eternally save their minds—as opposed to souls, which is not a transhumanist concept—via uploading into computer programs, a concept known as “digital immortality.” This is hardly what St. Paul meant when he asked, “Death, where is thy sting? Grave, where is thy victory?”
Transhumanists not only believe that life is too short, but that human capacities are inadequate. Thus, the second great goal of transhumanism is “morphological freedom,” i.e., radical quality improvement—not through self-discipline, embracing the virtues, or focused efforts at character building, but via materialistic means such as gene editing, brain implants, and merging with AI technologies.
The ultimate purpose of this quest isn’t spiritual—not theosis or sanctification—but to become super-beings in a materialistic sense. As Istvan wrote in 2016 in the Huffington Post: “We must force our evolution in the present day via our reasoning, inventiveness, and especially our scientific technology. In short, we must embrace transhumanism—the radical field of science that aims to turn humans into, for lack of a better word, gods.” It’s hard to see how any of that squares with the Christian’s call to humility.
Transhumanists don’t just want to manipulate their own bodies, but also those of their children. They hope to do this through genetic engineering and unnatural means of family formation. According to the Transhumanist Bill of Rights, “All sentient entities are entitled to reproductive freedom, including through novel means such as the creation of mind clones, monoparent children, or benevolent artificial general intelligence.” And I haven’t even gotten into how, by granting rights to AI computers and proposing to “upgrade” animals into rational beings, the movement rejects Christianity’s view of human uniqueness.
Patrick Wood is a leading and critical expert on Sustainable Development, Green Economy, Agenda 21, 2030 Agenda and historic Technocracy. He is the author of Technocracy Rising: The Trojan Horse of Global Transformation (2015) and co-author of Trilaterals Over Washington, Volumes I and II (1978-1980) with the late Antony C. Sutton.
Christians have already embraced psychiatry. A form of materialism–posing as medicine–that denies the soul, calls certain sins symptoms of a brain disease, and reduces human consciousness to random chemicals in your skull.
Last edited 11 months ago by Ren
Lorena
March 28, 2022 11:38 am
Nick Bostrom, Ray Kurzweil, and Zoltan Istvan I am sure are not born again Christians but they are part of Satan’s religion to destroy the world. No one who is a genuine Christians will follow this evil nonsense. The Lord Jesus Christ said;”the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [5] And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” John 10:4b-5 Reminder the gate is narrow.
Jacob Worm
March 28, 2022 1:06 pm
Christianity is only a man-made religion and not truth just like every other religion. Religions are governmental control mechanisms by the sons of adam.
Religion may be but NOT the SOUL. The soul remains with or without the outside influences of any organized religion. Humans are unique in that. We live in God’s grace forever, with or without a constructed religious attachment. Source/God is always with us, hidden deep inside us but available. All that is necessary is to listen. I’m not a Christian but I fervently defend anyone’s right to traverse their life and death scenarios as they choose by their own hand with God’s guidance as they hear it. That means organized religion to some and the belief that Jesus was the… Read more »
Freeland_Dave
March 28, 2022 1:15 pm
Just as calling your self a woman doesn’t mean that you are a woman, calling yourself a Christian does not mean that you are a Christian. There are many liars out there that will try to deceive you but God does offer you protection from their deceptions. He does this by supplying you His Word and encourages/admonishes you to study it on a daily basis with instruction that everything you hear from man is to be tested against His word to determine if it’s true or not. Any question t or other beings hat cannot be validated completely by what… Read more »
Those that clain to be transhumanist are not true Christians, many join a church for social activities and I know a number of people like that, not really friends tho’ who know very little about the Bible teachings since majority are apostate clergy in these 501c3 gov. controlled churches (mainline denom.) for appr. 70 yrs. The seminaries and nat. assoc. dictate how to run a church and to be politically correct on sermons which mainly preach social justice and condoning most anything. They are also globalist gatekeepers like churches during ww2 inthe E.U. which are gov. controlled for centuries. True… Read more »
Godot
March 28, 2022 2:55 pm
Matthew 6:24
King James Bible No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Phil
March 29, 2022 1:14 am
This quote displays a measure of biblical ignorance: “participating with God in the redemption, reconciliation, and renewal of the world.” One gets the feeling the CTA is volunteering their services to God whether he likes it or not. A reading of scripture shows us God doesn’t need our assistance, and redemption for the world was complete with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also tells us there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Destruction, not renewal, is what’s planned for this place. If the quote sums up the CTA mission, even in part, it reads… Read more »
Elle
March 29, 2022 7:44 am
Christianity and Transhumanism merged? A completely ridiculous construction and exactly what I’d expect from the mindless, valueless, compassionless, corrupt, sick-os pushing the slavery model of Technocracy. SO deluded. Clearly, they can’t hear God/Source speaking to them. Actually, my heart breaks for their stupidity when God/Source is right there inside them waiting to be heard. Nevertheless, they have no ears for that and want to live forever! Since they can’t hear Source/God they push to achieve their goal of immortality via artificial evolution. But that’s not enough. They must level their sick reality on the rest of us. What a load… Read more »
Elle, you are clearly an intelligent, thinking, frank, discerning, and open minded person. I appreciate that. I also see above that you’re not a Christian, but strongly defend our right to choose for ourselves, as true liberal and libertarian principles teach. Again, appreciation. You made some excellent points and observations in both places, from which I do not wish to detract. In Christian theology, God is separate and distinct from his creation, he does not reside within created matter. The Spirit of God does not dwell within humans, until that individual makes a decision to believe in and trust Christ.… Read more »
Quite erudite explanation of your religion. Just for the record I do not find using the word Source any different than using God or perhaps another choice for the “All-That-Is” for lack of a better phrase. These words, when the definition is agreed, refers to the greater part of us all from which we have come. Some do not hear or maybe can’t distinguish the voice of God from entities that would cause them harm, lead them into the darkness. (We are seeing a lot of happening worldwide today.) So , so sad. However, to set the record straight a… Read more »
Elle, I appreciate your biographical information and gracious response. Its always interesting learning peoples story, and why they think and believe as they do. Presumably, near bottom you refer to the new consciousness network when you mention “wakening”? I enjoyed a carefree and un-religious existence until I was nine, when I found my dad on the bottom of a swimming pool. He was pulled out dead, and by the amazing feat of a doctor who was at the party, he began breathing. When he awakened in the hospital, he asked my mother: “you know who saved me, don’t you?”, meaning… Read more »
The church you were reared in sounds a lot like a couple I attended in my search. Yikes! My experience was not, luckily, in the same vein. My family attended and the usual people from our very small community of maybe 500+. So, it was an extension of home, with friends and neighbors. I’m just not cut from that cloth. My family withheld getting terribly upset. They did not mandate that I attend. I think they believed I’d return on my own. So, kudos to them for being good Christians. …”fallible men who claim to speak for God…” is as… Read more »
[…] Oxymoron: Christian Transhumanism Is Trending (technocracy.news) […]
Gordon Holley
April 4, 2022 10:13 pm
I think it’s just a rational response to reality, doctrine, and reality. Reality: the world sucks. People are jerks. The earth is full of disasters. Doctrine: God made you born bad, so bad that he’ll sent you to hell unless you pick the right religion. Jesus came to take away your sin, and left the Holy Spirit to make you a better person. Reality: Jesus left the world just as bad as it was, and the Holy Spirit doesn’t make people better. And the miracles stopped, and we can’t even agree on how to read our only book. All of… Read more »
Gordon – You had to swim upstream to come up with this worldview and poor view of God. However, it is evident that you believe there is a God and that He has a Son, because you capitalize God and Jesus.
I’m just stating the underlying and unspoken facts of Christianity, that they believe that God set us all up to sin, threatens us with eternal torture for it, and gives an out to those who convert to the right religion. I have a different take on sin and Jesus, and believe that being Christ-like is real Christianity, regardless of nominal religious affiliation. People worship Jesus in all but spoken name. I reject much of Paul’s rambling and raving unless I have an expert in rabbinical (2 Peter 3:16 has a point despite being a pseudepigraph) greek reading by my side.… Read more »
Gordon, I was once poisoned by extreme bitterness similar to your own. I remember what its like to wake up every day angry, and live each minute a seething maelstrom inside. Bitterness and rage magnify the difficult verses in scripture, and cause us to focus on them to the exclusion of those that restore life. Bitterness is living death. Its not that you don’t see the words of life, you cannot understand or accept them due to hardness of heart. You see everything that can be twisted to validate your position, and fail to see and grasp the core message… Read more »
I say again, that the core message of the Good News is overshadowed by the Bad News. The Gospel is based on the Fælspel. Evangelism must start with Cacangelism. Whence came my sinful nature? Each of us is an individual creation of God (Psalm 139:13, 100:3, 119:73, Malachi 2:10, Zechariah 12:1). I was not procreated, but created by God’s hands. If I do have a sinful nature, then God put it in me. I say this because if sin is transmitted by parentage, so would regeneration. Both of my parents were Born-Again; if sin is a status transmitted to progeny,… Read more »
Hello Gordon, you’re still missing the point. Yes, the bad news is very bad indeed, worse than most people realize. But, The Good News already overcame the bad news, and salvation is available to all who believe. In the letter to the Hebrews, those who left Egypt perished in the desert, wandering for forty years until they died off. They didn’t enter the promised land due to unbelief. I think its in Heb. chapter three, in the NASB it says; “Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, as in the day… Read more »
Introducing a hithertounknown guarantee of infinite torture, and then reducing it to an ultimatum (you call “invitation”) of infinite torture does not good news make. That’s just Stockholm Syndrome. I need to understand how being brought forth from sinful forebears is a matter of personal guilt. You have introduced a false dilemma of “consequences” of sin being all or nothing, multiply by zero, or divide by zero. Why is that so, that the only alternative to eternal hell is no consequences for sin at all? Do not for a moment pretend that I “enjoy” anything about the god of the… Read more »
Gordon, its difficult to answer without annoying tautology, but I’ll try. I don’t remember presenting an ultimatum, but its probably not unreasonable to view as such, due to the gravity of everlasting Hell. It could be your view of God coloring your perception. In order to appreciate how good the good news is though, you must realize how bad the bad news is. That’s why the first Beatitude is: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:3, NASB. You don’t enter God’s kingdom without first recognizing your sinfulness before a holy God, to… Read more »
Great question Gordon. Its good you’re thinking and asking questions. Blind faith would not be wise use of your logic and intelligence. Conversely, we can logic and reason ourselves into a box, over-analyzing and over-thinking everything. Both extremes end up being foolish. The short answer is: because you’re mixing two different things. The all or nothing relates just to determining entrance into heaven or hell. The degrees of punishment or reward come at or after arrival at our eternal destination. I detailed it below if you care to read further. All our sins condemn us, but acceptance of Christ’s shed… Read more »
This is just another tautology. You repeat the same things and give no reasoning behind them or their interveption with the flow of reality. You make a claim and prove that claim with another claim. No matter how you frame it, God set us up from birth to be necessarily sinners, then threatens us into redemption with infinite torture while also claiming that there are degrees of judgement, yet making no attempt to illustrate it. It’s quite logical, then, to resort to transhumanism as a means to avoid God and the way he created everyone after Adam. I think you… Read more »
Hello Gordon, have you ever read “How the Irish Saved Civilization”, by Thomas Cahill? This book is impeccably researched, superlatively written, and a fascinating read even for purely historical interest. The author lets out early in the book his dim view of Christianity, and yet, he grasped with startling clarity the reasons pagans were quick to embrace the Gospel. It didn’t stop there, the new converts were hungry for knowledge of all kinds, and zealously imported books across all disciplines, which benefited us all after the fall of Rome. The book is a very fair and insightful treatment of the… Read more »
You aren’t getting a lick of what I kean to say, and so long as you cling to the Western ideology of sin and atonement being the penal-forensic problem instead of a medical-ontological problem, you will never stop worshipping Zeus and Hercules, calling them God. So long as you believe that Jesus’ grace is limited by the Gospel, you have turned the Gospel from a boost of confidence to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness into a sales pitch and ultimatum of join-us-or-burn. Jesus’ name is bigger than a set of titles and a verbal label. Jesus’ name can… Read more »
Gordon, sorry it took so long, my father passed away on day of my last response. It seriously pains me to see what a philosophical and ideological rut you’ve thought yourself into. Before you think to accuse me of same; remember, I asked for your references, because I’m willing to do the research, my mind is not a closed loop. My shelves are filled with books. I have Eastern religions, Plato, Theosophy, Gnosticism, Gestalt, Dianetics, Kabbalah, Hegel, Kant, and many more. I think your anger is preventing you from grasping a thing I’ve said. I recommend a book thats authored… Read more »
Don’t hurl insults at me. And don’t pretend that your construction of the Bible is the only one there is, either. I am only angry at your god, not at God. I am bitter towards your horrible caricature of God that is widely and mindlessly considered biblical and orthodox, because it has nothing to do with the real Jesus and his intentions. It is Platonic philosophy being forced into God’s reform of the Jewish faith and his love for the gentiles. I think it’s blasphemous, the amount that Christianity has twisted Jesus’ message. The man was Jewish. You have to… Read more »
Gordon, thank you for the reading recommendations. It will be awhile before I can finish the task. I need to finish a few books I’m working on now. I also have a huge move to accomplish, hold a job, and fix some broken stuff, but I will get the reading done. I actually do care to understand where you’re coming from, what and why you believe as you do. That’s a big reason I’ve such a collection of non-Christian books. Its not just to be able to understand others beliefs, or challenge my own, its also to understand how others… Read more »
I encountered them browsing my mother’s library. She’s a Hebrew scholar, ex-Catholic. I specify revised because there are now multiple branchings of the Hebrew Roots Movenent, some wilder than others, and the latter chapters outline them. I actually can’t read through a whole paper copy of a book without grabbing a notebook and compulsively taking notes and making a study guide. This makes it a very long and hard process to read whole books, at least physical ones. My career leaves me loads of time to think. I am working on studying Greek grammar and word formation right now, and… Read more »
Gordon, thank you for the well crafted response, a very cogent and concinnous effort. You write exceedingly well when I’m not making you mad! There are a number of things I want to say, but plan to reread another time or two first, because its too much for my aging brain to take in in one read. Plus, being at the end of my day is disadvantageous to learning. At this point I’m not sure all my questions were addressed, but that does not detract from the quality of presentation, or prevent later considerations. I came very close to being… Read more »
If God’s love is limited by his nature, it is not infinite. If it is cut off by human decisions made in ignorance, while on earth, it is a weak love. No paramedic refuses treatment to the dazed and confused crash victim who tells them to go away and that he doesn’t need help while profusely bleeding. The paramedic will give him treatment no matter what. The treatment will hurt, and the patient might need to be restrained, but he will be treated. Eternal torture is not discipline, and God does not “have to” penalize anyone to be just. Imagine… Read more »
Hello Gordon, I think we have a different idea as to who is “stuck”. There’s too much to answer to now, and I’ll be out for a few days. I don’t have time tonight to revisit my comments, but if I said somehow that God’s love is limited, when I believe the opposite, that was an oversight in need of correction. What I will say is that not all accept God’s love, a type of self-inflicted limit. If nothing else, your keen and perceptive powers of observation force me to more carefully choose and frame my every word, but not… Read more »
Now wait a second. If the Bible says that Jesus is anathema, yet Paul says, in 1 Cor 12:3… Do you believe that the only two possibilities for life after death are either: irreversible consignment to eternal conscious torment without remedy, release, or escape, or: eternal, infinite, blissful communion with God? If you do, do you believe that the only effective separator between these two destinations is whether or not one adopts and properly internalizes the creedal beliefs which are proclaimed by the Christian religion? Truely, nothing else matters, and transhumanism is a perfectly legitimate and practical path to improve… Read more »
Gordon, I got Howard Storm, read first chapter, “Paris”, just to get an idea about the work. Still have other things to finish, unless I decide to put them off. Have also been trickling out other comments bit by excruciating bit, due to time. The big nuisance of that is being able to concentrate sufficiently in short time, and get rapidly back to where I left off. Not my strong suit. Still planning to acquire the other recommendations too. Hope all is well.
[…] the newest gadget to monitor, or perhaps enhance us. Lastly, there is also a movement called Christian Transhumanism, which merges Christian theology with the tenets of the transhumanist faith. This is one more […]
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Christians have already embraced psychiatry. A form of materialism–posing as medicine–that denies the soul, calls certain sins symptoms of a brain disease, and reduces human consciousness to random chemicals in your skull.
Nick Bostrom, Ray Kurzweil, and Zoltan Istvan I am sure are not born again Christians but they are part of Satan’s religion to destroy the world. No one who is a genuine Christians will follow this evil nonsense. The Lord Jesus Christ said;”the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
[5] And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” John 10:4b-5
Reminder the gate is narrow.
Christianity is only a man-made religion and not truth just like every other religion. Religions are governmental control mechanisms by the sons of adam.
Religion may be but NOT the SOUL. The soul remains with or without the outside influences of any organized religion. Humans are unique in that. We live in God’s grace forever, with or without a constructed religious attachment. Source/God is always with us, hidden deep inside us but available. All that is necessary is to listen. I’m not a Christian but I fervently defend anyone’s right to traverse their life and death scenarios as they choose by their own hand with God’s guidance as they hear it. That means organized religion to some and the belief that Jesus was the… Read more »
Just as calling your self a woman doesn’t mean that you are a woman, calling yourself a Christian does not mean that you are a Christian. There are many liars out there that will try to deceive you but God does offer you protection from their deceptions. He does this by supplying you His Word and encourages/admonishes you to study it on a daily basis with instruction that everything you hear from man is to be tested against His word to determine if it’s true or not. Any question t or other beings hat cannot be validated completely by what… Read more »
Those that clain to be transhumanist are not true Christians, many join a church for social activities and I know a number of people like that, not really friends tho’ who know very little about the Bible teachings since majority are apostate clergy in these 501c3 gov. controlled churches (mainline denom.) for appr. 70 yrs. The seminaries and nat. assoc. dictate how to run a church and to be politically correct on sermons which mainly preach social justice and condoning most anything. They are also globalist gatekeepers like churches during ww2 inthe E.U. which are gov. controlled for centuries. True… Read more »
Matthew 6:24
King James Bible
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
This quote displays a measure of biblical ignorance: “participating with God in the redemption, reconciliation, and renewal of the world.” One gets the feeling the CTA is volunteering their services to God whether he likes it or not. A reading of scripture shows us God doesn’t need our assistance, and redemption for the world was complete with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also tells us there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Destruction, not renewal, is what’s planned for this place. If the quote sums up the CTA mission, even in part, it reads… Read more »
Christianity and Transhumanism merged? A completely ridiculous construction and exactly what I’d expect from the mindless, valueless, compassionless, corrupt, sick-os pushing the slavery model of Technocracy. SO deluded. Clearly, they can’t hear God/Source speaking to them. Actually, my heart breaks for their stupidity when God/Source is right there inside them waiting to be heard. Nevertheless, they have no ears for that and want to live forever! Since they can’t hear Source/God they push to achieve their goal of immortality via artificial evolution. But that’s not enough. They must level their sick reality on the rest of us. What a load… Read more »
Elle, you are clearly an intelligent, thinking, frank, discerning, and open minded person. I appreciate that. I also see above that you’re not a Christian, but strongly defend our right to choose for ourselves, as true liberal and libertarian principles teach. Again, appreciation. You made some excellent points and observations in both places, from which I do not wish to detract. In Christian theology, God is separate and distinct from his creation, he does not reside within created matter. The Spirit of God does not dwell within humans, until that individual makes a decision to believe in and trust Christ.… Read more »
Quite erudite explanation of your religion. Just for the record I do not find using the word Source any different than using God or perhaps another choice for the “All-That-Is” for lack of a better phrase. These words, when the definition is agreed, refers to the greater part of us all from which we have come. Some do not hear or maybe can’t distinguish the voice of God from entities that would cause them harm, lead them into the darkness. (We are seeing a lot of happening worldwide today.) So , so sad. However, to set the record straight a… Read more »
Elle, I appreciate your biographical information and gracious response. Its always interesting learning peoples story, and why they think and believe as they do. Presumably, near bottom you refer to the new consciousness network when you mention “wakening”? I enjoyed a carefree and un-religious existence until I was nine, when I found my dad on the bottom of a swimming pool. He was pulled out dead, and by the amazing feat of a doctor who was at the party, he began breathing. When he awakened in the hospital, he asked my mother: “you know who saved me, don’t you?”, meaning… Read more »
The church you were reared in sounds a lot like a couple I attended in my search. Yikes! My experience was not, luckily, in the same vein. My family attended and the usual people from our very small community of maybe 500+. So, it was an extension of home, with friends and neighbors. I’m just not cut from that cloth. My family withheld getting terribly upset. They did not mandate that I attend. I think they believed I’d return on my own. So, kudos to them for being good Christians. …”fallible men who claim to speak for God…” is as… Read more »
[…] Oxymoron: Christian Transhumanism Is Trending (technocracy.news) […]
I think it’s just a rational response to reality, doctrine, and reality. Reality: the world sucks. People are jerks. The earth is full of disasters. Doctrine: God made you born bad, so bad that he’ll sent you to hell unless you pick the right religion. Jesus came to take away your sin, and left the Holy Spirit to make you a better person. Reality: Jesus left the world just as bad as it was, and the Holy Spirit doesn’t make people better. And the miracles stopped, and we can’t even agree on how to read our only book. All of… Read more »
Gordon – You had to swim upstream to come up with this worldview and poor view of God. However, it is evident that you believe there is a God and that He has a Son, because you capitalize God and Jesus.
I’m just stating the underlying and unspoken facts of Christianity, that they believe that God set us all up to sin, threatens us with eternal torture for it, and gives an out to those who convert to the right religion. I have a different take on sin and Jesus, and believe that being Christ-like is real Christianity, regardless of nominal religious affiliation. People worship Jesus in all but spoken name. I reject much of Paul’s rambling and raving unless I have an expert in rabbinical (2 Peter 3:16 has a point despite being a pseudepigraph) greek reading by my side.… Read more »
Gordon, I was once poisoned by extreme bitterness similar to your own. I remember what its like to wake up every day angry, and live each minute a seething maelstrom inside. Bitterness and rage magnify the difficult verses in scripture, and cause us to focus on them to the exclusion of those that restore life. Bitterness is living death. Its not that you don’t see the words of life, you cannot understand or accept them due to hardness of heart. You see everything that can be twisted to validate your position, and fail to see and grasp the core message… Read more »
I say again, that the core message of the Good News is overshadowed by the Bad News. The Gospel is based on the Fælspel. Evangelism must start with Cacangelism. Whence came my sinful nature? Each of us is an individual creation of God (Psalm 139:13, 100:3, 119:73, Malachi 2:10, Zechariah 12:1). I was not procreated, but created by God’s hands. If I do have a sinful nature, then God put it in me. I say this because if sin is transmitted by parentage, so would regeneration. Both of my parents were Born-Again; if sin is a status transmitted to progeny,… Read more »
Hello Gordon, you’re still missing the point. Yes, the bad news is very bad indeed, worse than most people realize. But, The Good News already overcame the bad news, and salvation is available to all who believe. In the letter to the Hebrews, those who left Egypt perished in the desert, wandering for forty years until they died off. They didn’t enter the promised land due to unbelief. I think its in Heb. chapter three, in the NASB it says; “Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, as in the day… Read more »
Introducing a hithertounknown guarantee of infinite torture, and then reducing it to an ultimatum (you call “invitation”) of infinite torture does not good news make. That’s just Stockholm Syndrome. I need to understand how being brought forth from sinful forebears is a matter of personal guilt. You have introduced a false dilemma of “consequences” of sin being all or nothing, multiply by zero, or divide by zero. Why is that so, that the only alternative to eternal hell is no consequences for sin at all? Do not for a moment pretend that I “enjoy” anything about the god of the… Read more »
Gordon, its difficult to answer without annoying tautology, but I’ll try. I don’t remember presenting an ultimatum, but its probably not unreasonable to view as such, due to the gravity of everlasting Hell. It could be your view of God coloring your perception. In order to appreciate how good the good news is though, you must realize how bad the bad news is. That’s why the first Beatitude is: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:3, NASB. You don’t enter God’s kingdom without first recognizing your sinfulness before a holy God, to… Read more »
How can you say something is all-or-nothing if there are degrees of it?
Great question Gordon. Its good you’re thinking and asking questions. Blind faith would not be wise use of your logic and intelligence. Conversely, we can logic and reason ourselves into a box, over-analyzing and over-thinking everything. Both extremes end up being foolish. The short answer is: because you’re mixing two different things. The all or nothing relates just to determining entrance into heaven or hell. The degrees of punishment or reward come at or after arrival at our eternal destination. I detailed it below if you care to read further. All our sins condemn us, but acceptance of Christ’s shed… Read more »
This is just another tautology. You repeat the same things and give no reasoning behind them or their interveption with the flow of reality. You make a claim and prove that claim with another claim. No matter how you frame it, God set us up from birth to be necessarily sinners, then threatens us into redemption with infinite torture while also claiming that there are degrees of judgement, yet making no attempt to illustrate it. It’s quite logical, then, to resort to transhumanism as a means to avoid God and the way he created everyone after Adam. I think you… Read more »
Hello Gordon, have you ever read “How the Irish Saved Civilization”, by Thomas Cahill? This book is impeccably researched, superlatively written, and a fascinating read even for purely historical interest. The author lets out early in the book his dim view of Christianity, and yet, he grasped with startling clarity the reasons pagans were quick to embrace the Gospel. It didn’t stop there, the new converts were hungry for knowledge of all kinds, and zealously imported books across all disciplines, which benefited us all after the fall of Rome. The book is a very fair and insightful treatment of the… Read more »
You aren’t getting a lick of what I kean to say, and so long as you cling to the Western ideology of sin and atonement being the penal-forensic problem instead of a medical-ontological problem, you will never stop worshipping Zeus and Hercules, calling them God. So long as you believe that Jesus’ grace is limited by the Gospel, you have turned the Gospel from a boost of confidence to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness into a sales pitch and ultimatum of join-us-or-burn. Jesus’ name is bigger than a set of titles and a verbal label. Jesus’ name can… Read more »
Gordon, sorry it took so long, my father passed away on day of my last response. It seriously pains me to see what a philosophical and ideological rut you’ve thought yourself into. Before you think to accuse me of same; remember, I asked for your references, because I’m willing to do the research, my mind is not a closed loop. My shelves are filled with books. I have Eastern religions, Plato, Theosophy, Gnosticism, Gestalt, Dianetics, Kabbalah, Hegel, Kant, and many more. I think your anger is preventing you from grasping a thing I’ve said. I recommend a book thats authored… Read more »
Don’t hurl insults at me. And don’t pretend that your construction of the Bible is the only one there is, either. I am only angry at your god, not at God. I am bitter towards your horrible caricature of God that is widely and mindlessly considered biblical and orthodox, because it has nothing to do with the real Jesus and his intentions. It is Platonic philosophy being forced into God’s reform of the Jewish faith and his love for the gentiles. I think it’s blasphemous, the amount that Christianity has twisted Jesus’ message. The man was Jewish. You have to… Read more »
Gordon, thank you for the reading recommendations. It will be awhile before I can finish the task. I need to finish a few books I’m working on now. I also have a huge move to accomplish, hold a job, and fix some broken stuff, but I will get the reading done. I actually do care to understand where you’re coming from, what and why you believe as you do. That’s a big reason I’ve such a collection of non-Christian books. Its not just to be able to understand others beliefs, or challenge my own, its also to understand how others… Read more »
I encountered them browsing my mother’s library. She’s a Hebrew scholar, ex-Catholic. I specify revised because there are now multiple branchings of the Hebrew Roots Movenent, some wilder than others, and the latter chapters outline them. I actually can’t read through a whole paper copy of a book without grabbing a notebook and compulsively taking notes and making a study guide. This makes it a very long and hard process to read whole books, at least physical ones. My career leaves me loads of time to think. I am working on studying Greek grammar and word formation right now, and… Read more »
Gordon, thank you for the well crafted response, a very cogent and concinnous effort. You write exceedingly well when I’m not making you mad! There are a number of things I want to say, but plan to reread another time or two first, because its too much for my aging brain to take in in one read. Plus, being at the end of my day is disadvantageous to learning. At this point I’m not sure all my questions were addressed, but that does not detract from the quality of presentation, or prevent later considerations. I came very close to being… Read more »
If God’s love is limited by his nature, it is not infinite. If it is cut off by human decisions made in ignorance, while on earth, it is a weak love. No paramedic refuses treatment to the dazed and confused crash victim who tells them to go away and that he doesn’t need help while profusely bleeding. The paramedic will give him treatment no matter what. The treatment will hurt, and the patient might need to be restrained, but he will be treated. Eternal torture is not discipline, and God does not “have to” penalize anyone to be just. Imagine… Read more »
Hello Gordon, I think we have a different idea as to who is “stuck”. There’s too much to answer to now, and I’ll be out for a few days. I don’t have time tonight to revisit my comments, but if I said somehow that God’s love is limited, when I believe the opposite, that was an oversight in need of correction. What I will say is that not all accept God’s love, a type of self-inflicted limit. If nothing else, your keen and perceptive powers of observation force me to more carefully choose and frame my every word, but not… Read more »
Now wait a second. If the Bible says that Jesus is anathema, yet Paul says, in 1 Cor 12:3… Do you believe that the only two possibilities for life after death are either: irreversible consignment to eternal conscious torment without remedy, release, or escape, or: eternal, infinite, blissful communion with God? If you do, do you believe that the only effective separator between these two destinations is whether or not one adopts and properly internalizes the creedal beliefs which are proclaimed by the Christian religion? Truely, nothing else matters, and transhumanism is a perfectly legitimate and practical path to improve… Read more »
Gordon, I got Howard Storm, read first chapter, “Paris”, just to get an idea about the work. Still have other things to finish, unless I decide to put them off. Have also been trickling out other comments bit by excruciating bit, due to time. The big nuisance of that is being able to concentrate sufficiently in short time, and get rapidly back to where I left off. Not my strong suit. Still planning to acquire the other recommendations too. Hope all is well.
Phil
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